Examining Patrick Doyle
I was at Barnes & Noble when something caught my eye. Then it caught my wallet. I made an impulse buy: the score to The Last Legion, some Arthurian movie I’d never heard of, composed by Patrick Doyle.
The Last Legion sounds, predictably, like Patrick Doyle. The only other scores of his that I own are Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire and Eragon, although I am also at least familiar with Frankenstein.
Personally, I think the music to Goblet of Fire was about as good as it was going to get, considering John Williams wasn’t continuing the franchise. It worked out pretty well.
Eragon, by comparison, sounded like Doyle was sleepwalking through the scoring process. The music is wonderful, mind you, but it is just unbearably redundant. If you are scoring a fantasy adventure for bombastic orchestra, please come up with more than one melodic line.
It occurred to me, when I popped The Last Legion into my car stereo, that if you combined it with Eragon, it would sound like one score, with more balance among the thematic material. Enjoyable music.
This is not a new revelation, but it was reinforced at this point: Patrick Doyle’s music sounds like the kind of stuff that was in my head when I first started college. It’s the kind of music that I wanted to get onto the page, but didn’t have the education to do it. It’s the kind of music that essentially drew me into composing.
That’s not necessarily a good thing. This is the kind of stuff I was outlining in my head in high school: good melodic content, but very straightforward orchestration and an almost crippling reliance on triadic harmonies. Either I was precociously imaginative, or Patrick Doyle is like “Film Music Lite.” Maybe a little of both. Obviously, if I hadn’t had enough innate creativity, I never would’ve lasted in the program—I would have discovered that composition is not truly my niche, like many in the Mostly Live Composers Society who became disillusioned and redirected their focus.
In fact, some of the ideas I decided were too good to use until I knew how, or ideas I knew were far too large-scale for Dr. Gooch to permit me to explore, I saved until recently, when I came up with the idea for Fantascapes last winter. In a way, the mediocrity I see in Patrick Doyle’s craftsmanship has encouraged me to not be afraid of producing a lot of mediocrity myself, pursuing at least a few worthwhile cues in the process. Yeah, I don’t mind producing a mountain of crap, if it has a few gems encrusted in it. I can at least warm up to the idea.
So Patrick Doyle appeals to me, yet he doesn’t. He hasn’t influenced my music in the slightest, since I didn’t discover him until a couple years ago, and this so-called “influence” would have been in high school. No, it’s more of a coincidence than an influence.
If I had to describe my current musical aesthetic in terms of influences, I would list them as follows, in no particular order: Jerry Goldsmith, Elliot Goldenthal, James Newton Howard, Hans Zimmer, Harry Gregson-Williams, and probably even Nobuo Uematsu. Yes, if you mix all those together, and make it less good, you’d have my aesthetic.
Seriously, though, I don’t mean to denigrate Patrick Doyle’s music or style, nor do I mean to go overboard with self-deprecation of my own musical aesthetic. I guess what I’m saying is that Patrick Doyle’s music often sounds representative of my aesthetic when I’m not trying very hard. Indeed, it sounds sometimes like the through-composed music I improvise in my head while I’m going about my day, only perhaps slightly brighter in tone. Basically, I find Patrick Doyle’s music to be something that I discovered too late—I’ve almost outgrown it, yet it’s a relatively new discovery for me.
I’m just making observations about craft. His and mine. And how I am educated enough not to be taken in by dazzling, pretty, orchestral fireworks displays. I still like his music. I do. I like it but I don’t? If I can dichotomize music I “like” into two categories, “well-crafted” and merely “entertaining,” am I on the verge of becoming a music snob? I think not. Hopefully, it’s just a sign of my craftsmanship and cognizance having grown after achieving two degrees.
This borders on the timeless and impossibly inconclusive debate, "What constitutes good music?" I am not going anywhere near that philosophical quagmire. I'll just say that Patrick Doyle produces entertaining, enjoyable music. And I have grown a lot as a composer. That's all.

58 Comments:
"...an almost crippling reliance on triadic harmonies."
You say that like it's a bad thing.
Who are you and what have you done with Herr Vogler?
But seriously this is a good thing, right? I mean, if nothing else it proves that you had good musical instincts when you were younger and now your technique has evolved. That doesn't mean that your instincts aren't still credible. Quite the contrary actually. The bonus, now, is that you know how to capitalize on that(at least in your head).
"Your eyes can deceive you; don't trust them."
Monday, September 17, 2007 1:46:00 PM
I would say that you're probably as much a music snob as I am a film snob.
To mix metaphors a bit
You may know fine cuisine, but you still like your Doritos.
And there ain't nuthin' wrong with Doritos, so long as you understand that they are crap food. Tasty, tasty crap food.
Monday, September 17, 2007 1:58:00 PM
No, I am as much a music snob as you are a... music snob. Because you are a huge, huge film snob.
And Doritos suck. But Pringles... oh yeah... Pringles...
But I think of it as being a little more lenient towards music. I have the ability to "enjoy" most music, after all. I can be overbearingly intellectual when I want to be, but I tend to lay off the assholish analyzing, unlike many in academia. I like to let the music just be there to be listened to.
Sometimes you want a glass of Glenlivet on the rocks, sometimes you want to drink Kentucky Tavern straight out of the bottle. They'll both get you drunk.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:05:00 PM
I like Patrick Doyle's music. He's never claimed to be anything more than a melodist. He might, in fact, be the last Hollywood tunesmith that can write a tune that spans more than an octave (one of his themes from Sense and Sensibility has a leap of a tenth in it and must be sung in the film!).
Sure his music can be derivative and the real beauty of it is in its rich orchestral detail which, until recently, the question was "for how much of that was he actually responsible?"
He is at his absolute best, though, when he's composing for Ken Branagh. His scores for Henry V, Frankenstein, Hamlet and Much Ado About Nothing are all top-notch. And I've heard good things about As You Like It. They all seem to have an intangible little something *extra* in them that sets them apart from his other scores. The Pikey brought up an interesting point, though, in one or our conversations. His music is, in fact, thin. I know this and I still like it. One can make the same argument about Hans Zimmer's music, or any of the Artists Formerly Known As Media Ventures-types.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:10:00 PM
I would say that Media Ventures is very much Doritos for me, or... Pringles... if you must.
Branagh Doyle (or any early 90s Doyle ie Needful Things) is more like Wheat Thins... sounds healthier... but ultimately, it is not.
But still damn good.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:16:00 PM
Regarding Herr Volger's point about not using your eyes...
There is nothing more offensive than when people ask if I compose at the computer. Dan McDonough, aka KILLJOY, former officemate, used to infer as much, simply because I was always editing my thesis notation at the computer. First of all, how the hell else are you going to edit a score if you're not using the notation software??? Yeah, I named names. That's beside the point.
The point is, as you (perhaps inadvertently) brought up, that a "real" composer has the music inside head and heart. I find that my best music comes when I sit down and stare off into space, disregarding my eyes and concentrating on what the end result should sound like. Otherwise, if you work at the computer from the beginning, you get caught up in so many pitfalls such as forcing a time signature and tempo, thinking inside a box.
Not to mention how music technology today allows for all kinds of posers to rather easily produce their own cookie-cutter music, using canned riffs and self-developing effects. (Holding down the key while it's set to a public domain pad patch doesn't mean you "created" that layer.)
The music has to breathe, and to do that, you have to have it conceived before you start putting notes into a piece of software.
I was working on one cue in particular for Matra (before I got too busy with moving), and I got really pissed off at the "rushed" feeling the introduction had. It wasn't doing what I thought it should do, and it felt too forced, too short. I realized that this was because I was tooling around at the computer, and immediately abandoned the cue until I had a better grasp on it in my head, or at least written out in shorthand on a napkin or something.
Composing at the computer tends to be a very bad thing. Tends to be.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:19:00 PM
That was supposed to be Mantra, not Matra.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:21:00 PM
Baked Wheat Thins, maybe?
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:23:00 PM
And dipped in lard.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:26:00 PM
By the way, Tim, if you can be a music snob what the hell does that make me?
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:34:00 PM
I certainly have no problem listening to Trevor Rabin, for example... though I don't really listen to Rabin much at all these days.
Trevor Rabin's music is fringe Media Ventures. He's almost a whole different genre entirely, so I get annoyed when people insult me for it. Especially at Bowling Green. "Oh yeah? What do you listen to? Coldplay?" Puh-leeze. To them, the real music snobs, I say that I listen to Rabin in addition to the good stuff.
I never said Rabin was a great film composer, either. I simply love the timbre and color of every sound he uses. It has nothing to do with technique. It's just that 1990s sound I like and can't get enough of (although not so much, in the past year or two).
So I guess Trevor Rabin is the epitome of my musical junk food.
"It's pronounced Ra-BEEN."
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:41:00 PM
Dang it, I keep typing while I miss a new comment.
Good point... If I am a music snob... that would make you... uhh...
Wait a second... music snob...
"...an almost crippling reliance on triadic harmonies."
"You say that like it's a bad thing"
Did we switch personalities?
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:43:00 PM
I distinctly remember sitting in your brother's car, listening to Deep Blue Sea, me thinks, while we were waiting for your sister at MU one evening.
Rabin this. Rabin that.
I rattled your cage by constantly (and purposefully) pronouncing his name RRRAH-BEEEEEAAN! with a Antonio Banderas-like inflection.
Good-times.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:47:00 PM
What I was really getting at is that just because you enjoy something doesn't mean you are advocating recognition for its quality. That "Coldplay" jab was an example of that. People who pride themselves on being associated with only the best of academic what-have-you still listen to bands they wouldn't wear T-shirts of in the music building. To me, Trevor Rabin is the same in the film music realm. He is, after all, from a pop/rock group. I meant he's in a different genre than those such as Goldsmith, Bernstein, and Williams. You know what I meant.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:47:00 PM
Plus, I mean, come on... Trevor?
Might as well be "Todd". :)
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:49:00 PM
Yeah, you're still the dick you always were.
But I care less about defending Rabin nowaways because
1) I care less about his music overall.
2) The things I find appealing about his music are too intangible to defend. Color of patches, mainly.
3) I eventually realized that Rabin's best work is actually the result of working with Harry Gregson-Williams.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:50:00 PM
For crying out loud, now I can't keep up.
I'm becoming less convinced that any of us actually works.
word verification: myrobx
That's just awesome.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:50:00 PM
DAMN it, I swear, EVERY OTHER POST. Simultaneous commenting leaves a very disjoint flow to the discussion.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:51:00 PM
Disjoint flow? Even that reads awkwardly!!
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:51:00 PM
Hm... I guess you could say I've "outgrown" Rabin, too.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:53:00 PM
I don't know that I ever cared about any of Rabeeeeeeeen's music (there's always "Owner of a lonely heart"). I did always enjoy yanking your chain in school about how all of his scores sound pretty much the same. Actually they're interchangeable. You would think that Henry Ford himself had moonlighted as a composer.
(There's always "Owner of a lonely heart").
I'm doing it again.
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:54:00 PM
DAMMIT!!! I forgot to cut when I pasted!
Monday, September 17, 2007 2:59:00 PM
I think we all outgrow our musical tastes, while still holding them dear in some critical affection. You're right it pointing out that it seems to come from understanding how or what they achieved.
Then sometimes, in the case of Doyle (rounding third, coming back to home), they streamlined their style, dropping all the best parts. It's not just nostalgia that makes his earlier work better. It just was.
I guess I would say (even though I really don't know what I mean) that his older stuff was just more "British".
I find that I feel the same way about Elfman. Everything from Planet of the Apes on has the same percussive driving force. Not that it isn't fun... but I prefer the older work. When it sounded like something you'd hear in the sewers under the Paris Opera House.
I just realized that if you ever did a nostalgic post about the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles of old vs. new, you could title is "Turtle Wax".
Monday, September 17, 2007 3:03:00 PM
That's what she said. What?
Okay, enough about the universal disinterest in Rabin.
"...and everyone who looks like Todd."
Back to Patrick Doyle...
Yes, I agree that his music is quite "thin"--perhaps that is the best, most concise way to describe it. That is why I suspect he "sleepwalked" through scoring Eragon. In fact, I suspect that it was mostly ghost-written (and done so in a hurry). I mean, it just seems like he had a great fanfare (which he did; it's the first track) and had someone extrapolate that with a few pointers here and there.
The Battle for Varden cue is mostly just a sequential buildup on the theme in a minor key. I don't even want to see the movie, because I know it's only about half an hour longer than the CD, and I have trouble listening to it in one sitting.
Monday, September 17, 2007 3:08:00 PM
DANG IT, "that's what she said" was in reference to the comment before yours.
Monday, September 17, 2007 3:08:00 PM
Work is for people who don't have blogs.
Monday, September 17, 2007 3:11:00 PM
While some things can be outgrown, others can be "rediscovered." One time, in the spring, I listened to Stargate, having not heard it in a long, long time. It is probably the first CD I ever purchased, and it is still a great listen. After I hadn't listened to it in as much as two years, I was blown away at how enjoyably archetypal yet original it was.
Monday, September 17, 2007 3:14:00 PM
I was blown away at how enjoyably archetypal yet original it was.
I'm sure you didn't mean it as such, but, if one wanted to interpret it as such, that is just about the most amazing way to give someone/thing a back-handed compliment. Awesome.
word verification: uddba
om om shi dai, om om shi dai, om om shi dai...
Monday, September 17, 2007 3:52:00 PM
Yeah, most of what I said about Patrick Doyle here today have been backhanded compliments. Is this what it feels like to be you?
Normally, I just give a compliment and leave it at that. Like I said, I am pretty lenient that way. It astounds me how many people *ahem* [Bowling Green] *ahem* are afraid to just say they like something without having to list ten reasons why they shouldn't, just to prove that their tastes are, in fact, refined.
"It's... entertaining." It usually comes off so insulting, like there is no redeemable value in there at all, much less a compliment.
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:05:00 PM
The biggest reason that film composers get hired is their past work. More often than not their early work is going to be more interesting, it gets them recognised, someone wants that "sound" on their film and, BAM! they're working regularly. Eventually there's no incentive to develop technique, only craft. This doesn't mean personal artistic development doesn't happen, there's just no incentive.
Perhaps this is why the early Pat Doyle scores are better than most of the later ones (it could also be that Doyle is trained as an actor and not as a composer).
Regarding Danny Elfman, I believe that he is one of the few who has developed both along the way. His music has gotten more interesting to my ear. I don't know that it's necessarily more rhythmically driven, but it certainly is more percussive. I like the 'sewer beneath the Paris Opera House' analogy. From what I know of him, I think Elfman would be pretty happy with that. But he's certainly learned how to use his compositional materials a lot better.
Look at James Horner. He's more-or-less been writing the same three or four scores for the past ten years, yet he still gets work. Why? Because he's safe. You know what you're going to get when you hire him.
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:06:00 PM
You're getting close. The formula goes something like this:
1/2 cup snide back-handed compliment (you don't want people to immediately think you're overdoing it)
2 cups rationale stock, just to prove how smart you are (you should have plenty of this left over from school)
1 tbsp nuisance (unless of course you like it overdone)
4 cups contempt for your fellow humankind as you can stand. This has a really pungent aroma and can actually burn through your soul if not handled correctly so it's best left to experienced critics.
There's also the "secret sauce". More on that later.
Stir vigorously until viscosity of motor oil is reached and pour over subject liberally and strike down with lightsaber.
Makes 1 serving.
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:18:00 PM
Dude, there are so many reasons why that's funny...
Tell me about this... um... secret sauce...
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:27:00 PM
Two words: peanut butter
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:29:00 PM
I think it was the Captain who said on the phone, "You can either be a dirty whore or a starving artist."
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:31:00 PM
Why can't you be both?
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:32:00 PM
Tell you what... you bring that peanut butter over, and we'll talk about that combination...
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:33:00 PM
And this post was going so well, too...
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:34:00 PM
Where's the Pikey? I bet that hairy bastard went to bed. Damned nightcrawlers.
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:38:00 PM
My experiences haven't totally soiled my appreciation of such music at face value, nor has it completely turned me away from these discussions. However, it did take me several months of hermitage to decompress after grad school. It's refreshing to be able to compliment a work of music without having someone take a dump in your mouth for it.
One time, at Truman, you gave me a ride to my house, and you were blaring The Curse of the Black Pearl, and you were unrepentant for it. The funny thing is, I'd be the last person to take a potshot at you for getting such enjoyment out of it. Instead, I was relieved that you could simply enjoy the music to Pirates of the Caribbean without having to start an intellectual fistfight over it. I guess it all comes down to who you're around at the time. But I was impressed that, outside the context of Mostly Live [shudder], you were capable of uncondintional appreciation of something that many lesser minds would (and did) label a "guilty pleasure" at best.
The Last Legion is great fun. Go out and get it, if you're familiar with Doyle's new stuff and like it, because you know what you're getting. It's bombastic, British, filmic candy, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's a good score to have, if you are into the orchestral adventure genre.
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:45:00 PM
Yes, the Pikey is conspicuously absent... although these comments did crop up in a very short period of time... and he has been rather put off my the sheer amount of attention these blogs require...
Right, Starbuck?
It's been quiet...
tooooo quiet...
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:47:00 PM
I'm even more unrepentant now.
It's taken me this long to realise that music is like wine, it doesn't matter how expensive or cheap it is, if it tastes good to you that's all that matters
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:49:00 PM
Speaking of cheap, have you heard anything about a Transformers score release?
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:53:00 PM
Not yet.
That's another example: The Island, or as you called it, Variations without a Theme. I love every track on there, and I don't really care if anyone questions why.
Monday, September 17, 2007 4:56:00 PM
While some things can be outgrown, others can be "rediscovered."
This is certainly true. I've just recently rediscovered from antiquity these things called triads. I'm secretly replacing many of the more dissonant sonorities in my music with them. I even started writing augmented chords and non-functioning seventh chords! Boy are those academic types gonna be steamed! I'm a crazy man I tell ya! Crazy!
Seriously, though, opinions and assholes. I'm finally growing secure enough in my own artistry. There are only a few people whose opinions matter to me and even they can be tossed to the wind if necessary. I'm going to write the music that I want to write. Hopefully it's "intelligent enough" for some (god knows I can create a system of weights and measures within which to construct a piece of music), but really I just want someone to want to listen to it.
Monday, September 17, 2007 6:31:00 PM
That's what it's all about.
Monday, September 17, 2007 6:40:00 PM
If you all are done defending your musical tastes without defending them... I'm going to go listen to some Mary Shelley's Frankenstein.
And then some of Waxman's Bride of Frankenstein...
'cause I love salt with my sugar.
Monday, September 17, 2007 8:03:00 PM
My god in heaven. Can it be? Someone here besides me who owns scores composed before 1970?
This may be too much.
Monday, September 17, 2007 9:29:00 PM
OMG, this is incredible!!! You blokes use blog comments like most people use instant messengers! And all of this while you were at work? I bow in respect and admiration.
By the way - to herr vogler and warrior bard - I'll be in KC on Oct 15 and 16. We should probably get some frosty libations after my audition. . .
Monday, September 17, 2007 10:06:00 PM
For crying out loud, now I can't keep up.
I've been sayin' it for ten damn years! Ain't I been saying it?
Well, ok, maybe Randy Quaid doesn't quite apply here, but by golly do I agree with the sentiment. Seriously people... 50 comments in one afternoon? I haven't even read them all because this was supposed to be a brief break from writing a paper. Seriously!
Ok, now that my brother can complain about my pointless comment, and I'm tired of typing italics tags, it's back to work. You guys do remember that word, right? :)
Monday, September 17, 2007 11:40:00 PM
You're BOTH wrong. This has been a substantive (if a bit esoteric) post, and the comments remained more or less on-task, apart from the occasional homoerotic undertones.
Tuesday, September 18, 2007 8:09:00 AM
I was merely marvelling at the overwhelming count. You're right, if they'd all been fluff comments of obscure references I would've had no trouble getting through them all.
But that's an impressive amount of substance in such a short amount of time. You boys done good.
Tuesday, September 18, 2007 9:56:00 AM
Transformers is slated for October 9th. As for the rest, I'm too fucking exhausted just catching up with what you crazy fuckers have already spewed out.
Give me a bit, maybe I'll have something meaningful to contribute...doubt it, but maybe!
I have a lot of scores composed before 1970, it's just that most of them are from bad 60's comedies with Johnny Williams music...there's only so much of that kind of fluff even I can take.
Tuesday, September 18, 2007 11:39:00 AM
Mikey: You know you could've put it more succinctly and said you have a number of pre-1970 scores but that they're pretty much all crap; unlike mine.
Good to know about Transformers though. I was actually gonna be a little miffed if no one ever got around to releasing the score.
Starbuck: I just realized your ID4 reference. I must be slipping in my old age.
Just about put a hex on the whole damn thing.
Tuesday, September 18, 2007 8:43:00 PM
WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT CRAP?!!
Their not crap, most of them are quite good. It's just that there's a certain cheese-factor associated with both the time period and the genre. There was that short period where apparently every comedy released had to have a quasi-jazzy, goofball score. If anything, let's just consider ourselves lucky we had guys like Johnny and Hank Mancini writing some of them. Fluffy and corny - yes, definately; crap - I think not.
As for Music for Giant Robot Carnage, the release date might have something to do with coinciding with the DVD release the following week.
Oh, and did you hear about the 4 CD + 1 DVD awesomeness due November 6th...three words:
OH
HELL
YES!!!
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:48:00 PM
FUCK!!!
SHIT!!!
DAMMIT!!!
(Am I playing golf or did I make a typo?)
That should've read "They're" not "their"...CHRIST I'M TIRED!
(typo it is!)
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 3:50:00 PM
One trilogy to rule them all...
Yes, the complete recording of The Return of the King. Just this weekend I phased The Fellowship of the Ring back into my listening.
Great, great music.
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:02:00 PM
I did hear about the 5-disc set for ROTK. It'll make a nice birthday present for yours truly.
Good thing you caught your typo. Naturally I was ready to pounce.
"I am a tiger."
Wednesday, September 19, 2007 4:11:00 PM
"You are a kitten - careful not to end up in a sack at the bottom of a river somewhere."
Thursday, September 20, 2007 2:47:00 AM
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